Read the following transcript and then decide for yourself if you think this slow moving and slow thinking individual was the same one who acted like a combat assassin to execute an operation as efficient as the Port Arthur massacre.

Transcript 1/5

Q. Look Martin, you've obviously got a, a, an interest in firearms as well?

A. Well, I have had an interest in firearms.

Q. How many guns do you own?

A. I own umm, a shotgun and a semi-automatic and another semi-automatic. Three altogether.

Q. Where'd you get those guns?

A. Oh, umm, I can't really say, I haven't got my lawyer here so.

Q. Well we have spoken to your lawyer and he knows that we're talking to you. A, He knows, he knows.

Q. And aah, has no problem with that so aah.

A. Yeah I got umm, one ooh, off a gun dealer and also I got two of 'em umm, got two off ... (inaudible)

Q. Did you? A Yeah.

Q. We have got some of your guns here.

A. Yeah.

Q. Mr Warren might hold them up aah, and we'll perhaps talk about each one individually. That might be the best way, better'n we.

A. It's big, isn't it. Is it loaded?


Q. No it's


Q. No, it's not loaded.


Q. Definitely not loaded Martin I can tell you.

A. Yeah.


Q. This is a Daiwoo 12 guage shotgun.

A. Ohh sorry, yeah I bought that one off umm, Hill, do you know Terry Hill?

Q. You bought that one off Terry Hill?

A. Yeah, yeah.

Q. That's, ahh, what's his business name?

A. I bought, I paid three thousand for it.

Q. Three thousand dollars?

A. Yeah. Guns and Ammo.

Q. Guns and Ammo.


Q. Three thousand dollars.

A. But I mean it's a rare bird isn't it really.


Q. Yeah very. How long ago did you buy it?

A. I never, the funny thing is, I never umm, got round to using it. Even though I bought it, but it scared me the thought of it not working, and probably ricocheting out.


Q. Yeah.

A. 'Cos ... (inaudible) ... and

Q. Mmm

A. And so I never got to use that one.

Q. So you've never used it at all?

A. No, not that one but used the other one.


Q. Martin, how long ago did you get that one, can you remember?

A. Umm, that one. I bought that one about four months ago.

Q. About four months ago?

A. Mmm.

Q. Thank you. You're right, it's certainly a big and ahh, strange- looking thing isn't it?

A. She's burnt that one.

Q. Now this is a ahh, point two two three Remington.

A. It's a mess isn't it.

Q. Or a Colt AR15.

A. Yeah, Colt. Been burnt.

Q. Do you remember where you bought that one?

A. Yeah Terry Hill, Terry Hill.

Q. At Guns and Ammo?

A. Mmm.

Q. How long ago?

A. Month after, ahh before that one, five months ... (inaudible)

Q. Could you speak up again?

A. Five months ago I bought that one.

Q. Five months ago. And you can remember how much you paid for that one?

A. Ahh, five grand with the scope.

Q. Five.

A. Five thousand dollars with the scope on it. It was gonna be four and a half thousand without the scope but it was five thousand with the scope and strap and also got, got some ammunition thrown in.

Q. So that scope that's on it now was on it when you purchased it?

A. Yes. But it was a different color, it was darker.


Q. Is that a ahh, special scope?

A. Has it been burnt, must've been burnt, yeah.


Q. Is that a special scope?

A. Yes, it was a Colt or a special.


Q. Alright, what, what's sort of special about it bearing in mind I don't know too much about firearms Martin but?

A. Can I just look through it, am I allowed to have a look through the scope. Yeah. That's a special one for the gun itself.

Q. Right.

A. Especially made for it.


Q. Did you have it especially made for the gun or was it in stock and just came with the gun?

A. Terry Hill said umm, there's extras with that AR15, and I said well I'd be interested in some extras, but he said it'll cost you more. He said there's a scope, little Colt scope that goes with it and he said a strap and some ammo and he said it'll cost you five hundred dollars more.

Q. Ohh right.

A. So.

Q. Alright. How many rounds of ammunition did you get with that, can you remember?

A. Ohh, about eighty rounds. Eighty to a hundred rounds.

Q. Eighty to a hundred rounds?

A. Mmm.

Q. Thank you.


Q. Have you purchased any more rounds umm, since you know you've bought the firearm itself?

A. Umm, yeah I've probably purchased eight packets of, be twenty rounds in each.

Q. And that's since you've bought this?

A. Since I've bought it.

Q. From Terry.

A. Terry, yeah. Terry's, have you met Terry before?

Q. Yes, know Terry.

A. Still in business is he?


Q. Yes, he's still in business.

A. Yeah ... (inaudible).

Q. Now the next one, why do you ask that ahh, Martin, if Terry's still in business?

A. Ahh, 'cos I didn't have a licence. I had no gun licence.

Q. Sorry I didn't hear you.

A. I had no gun licence and I thought.

Q. So, just let me get this straight. You didn't have a gun licence?

A. No.

Q. Did you make out you had a gun licence when you purchased them?

A. No, I never discussed it, I never, I just said I had the cash on me and he said that's alright.

Q. Did he ever, did he ask to see if you had a gun licence?

A. No, never.

Q. Do you know Terry Hill like as a friend?

A. No, not really. Except when we were living, umm, he, I can still remember when you were young, small and he said you used to come in here and just look around after you'd finished school, I said yeah, so I knew him.

Q. So Guns and Ammo's been in New Town Road for

A. For a while.

Q. Quite a long time?

A. Yeah.

Q. Ohh right I see.

A. I think they were further down the road near the K-Mart at one stage.

Q. No I don't, of course I don't know anything about guns so I wouldn't know.

A. You, you don't own any?

Q. No, I don't own any firearms.


Q. Mr Paine and myself are about the same, we've got really no, well limited knowledge of firearms.

A. Yeah.

Q. Don't like them personally.

A. Yeah. PAINE

Q. Did you always deal with Terry when you went to the Guns and Ammo or did you deal with the staff as well?

A. Ohh there's only that other person, other man there, he dealt, he passed me the bullets, I used to just give Terry the money.

Q. But when you got the guns, you always dealt with Terry?

A. Ohh yes.

Q. Ohh right.

A. I bought some out of the paper.

Q. Yeah. Alright, the next one we'll look at is a ahh, a three 0 eight ahh, calibre, FN weapon.

A. Mmm.

Q. Do you remember where?

A. I've never seen that one before. Never. That's not one of mine.

Q. You sure?

A. No definitely not, never seen that in my life. It's nice though.


Q. Have you ever had a three 0 eight?

A. Three 0 eight, yes. Had a three 0 eight.

Q. Mmm.

A. That was one Terry Hill was repairing.


Q. Ill just ask Mr Warren to pick up a scope we have there on the floor because that might be causing the confusion. I believe that that scope was probably fitted to that gun before we got it. Now does that.

A. No I've never seen that scope before in my life. Never. No. No I've never. Never seen that scope in my life.

Q. Now you say you've never seen that three 0 eight before but you did in fact own a three 0 eight?

A. Yeah, definitely.

Q. Right.

A. ... (inaudible) ..., AR10.

Q. Just a sec, before I go onto that. Where did you get the three 0 eight that?

A. I bought the three 0 eight about, this is going back six, seven years now.

Q. Yes.

A. Out of a paper, out of the Mercury.

Q. Out of the Mercury?

A. Yes.

Q. Right. And where did you buy three 0 eight ammunition?

A. Umm, I managed to get that, a load of it, about six, seven boxes with twenty in each box, ohh about four or five years ago but I had it stored away, been stored away, I never got to use that and, and it's only recently that I got to use it but, but they were the wrong bullets. So I went over to Terry Hill for the first time for years and he said you're using the wrong bullets Martin, you should be using the military hard, hard top bullets. He said the only ones I've got in stock, I've got a case of three thousand rounds and he said it'll cost you nine, think it was nine hundred and thirty dollars. And I said I'll think about it, I'll get back to you on Monday. So it was on the Friday, I phoned him up a few hours later, I said I've got the money, I'll come over and buy the rounds.

Q. So you bought three thousand?

A. Rounds. I couldn't buy anything smaller off him because that's all he had at the time and.

Q. And when was that?

A. That's going back five months.

Q. Ohh right.

A. Four or five months ago.

Q. And is that ammunition.

A. That.

Q. Difficult to buy. You can't can you buy it sort off any gun dealer?

A. Umm, yeah you can buy it, I think you can buy hard top from other gun dealers but it's fairly hard to get hold of.

Q. Alright, we'll have a look at the last gun which is on the floor. And this is a point two two three calibre self-loading rifle.

A. Yep. I've never seen that one before. Mmm.

Q. Well we recovered that one.

A. It's nice isn't it.

Q. Ahh, from ahh, I believe, ahh, from a repairer, being repaired.

A. Mmm.

Q. Does that ring any bells?

A. Repairer. I've.

Q. Have you got any guns at the moment or did you have any guns.

A. That one was repaired for me, that other one, the AR10. That, I took over to Terry Hill.

Q. Ohh, so I've got them confused.

A. Yeah.

Q. That one was okay but the AR10 you had over at Terry Hill's being repaired?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Right, I see.

A. Yes.

Q. Alright. Where did you ahh, develop your love of umm, using firearms?

A. Umm, ohh I just, just loved the thought of owning them.


Q. How long have you owned firearms for Martin?

A. Umm, going back six, seven years. This was the first one I bought, the one out the paper.

Q. Right. So.

A. I've owned air rifles when I was younger.

Q. Did your Dad sort of encourage you to ahh, use firearms?

A. No, no, definitely not.

Q. He was against it was he?

A. Mmm.

Q. Did Mum know you had those guns?

A. Yeah my, ahh, Mum never knew, no. But the funny thing is umm, my Dad said if, when we used to go over to Richmond, he used to point it out, he said if you ever go over there Martin, to that prison anytime, I'm not gonna ever come and visit you, he said. So stay away, stay out of trouble. This, I mean, it's wrong isn't it. I shouldn't be in here.


Q. You shouldn't be in here?

A. No.

Q. Why do you say that Martin?

A. There you go, I don't know PAINE

Q. So Martin. A, Shouldn't be here.

Q. Where did you use these guns, did you practise shooting?

A. I only used them about four or five times altogether.


Q. How many rounds do you reckon you would've practised, you know, any idea?

A. Altogether, probably, probably twenty or thirty rounds out of that AR10 and probably twenty rounds out of that AR15 and that's about it, mmm.


Q. Did you ever go shooting with anyone else in the bush or anything like that?

A. No one.

Q. Just on, just on your own?

A. Mmm.

Q. What sort of car do you have Martin?

A. Ahh, I own a Volvo, a seventy nine model Volvo and a Honda Civic.

Q. Good cars?

A. Mmm. Great cars.

Q. How long have you owned the Volvo?

A. Ohh four years I've owned the Volvo for, mmm.


Q. Any ahh, specific reason or preference you chose a Volvo?

A. Ohh my Dad owned Volvos.

Q. Mmm.

A. That's probably why.

Q. Right.

A. They're all good cars.


Q. What about the Honda?

A. That was a great little car.

Q. Where'd you get the Honda from?

A. Ahh, that was inherited.

Q. Ohh right.

A. Mmm.

Q. And where did you get the Volvo from?

A. That was bought privately out of the paper.

Q. So you went and, you answered the ad?

A. Umm, answered the ad, yes.

Q. And went and saw it?

A. Yeah and bought it.


Q. Hey Martin, how come you never got about, got around to getting a driver's licence?

A. Ahh, I didn't think I'd ever pass or get through the courses 'cos I'm not that bright.

Q. Did you ever get ahh, stopped by the police or anything like that?

A. Well on the way back from Kingston I did, one day with the Honda Civic for, for not having it registered. And then he's asked for some ID, I said I haven't got, he asked for ID. He said what about your driver's licence. I said I haven't got a driver's licence. Ohh he said, that makes things difficult. So then like I didn't appear in court 'cos I didn't have to 'cos I got a fine of about two hundred dollars.

Q. Right. So you, you, how old are you now?

A. So umm, how old am I, twenty nine.

Q. And when did you start driving?

A. Umm, I started, what would it be, twelve months or so ago.

Q. Right, So you've had a pretty good run? A, Mmm. Pretty good run.


Q. You've only been driving twelve months?

A. Ohh over twelve months, probably two years.


Q. And you were living in Clare Street?

A. Yeah. Lived there for quite a while now. Mmm. Mmm.


Q. Just going back to your diving ahh, for a minute Martin ahh, you say you did have lessons with driving or did someone train you?

A. Umm, yes I did.

Q. Right.

A. Paddy. Paddy instructor.

Q. Now you mention you were diving ahh, when you went overseas there?

A. Yeah, in Sweden. A couple of times.

Q. In Sweden.

A. 'Cos they speak English the Swedes.

Q. Right.

A. Mmm.


Q. Where did you do most of your diving?

A. Umm, ohh mainly down Port Arthur.

Q. Ohh right.

A. 'Cos my parents owned a shack down there.

Q. Ohh, whereabouts?

A. Safety Cove.

Q. Ohh right.

A. Mmm.

Q. Was it good down there?

A. Yeah great, great down there. Catch a crayfish and have a ... (inaudible)

Q. Martin, just be, while, before I forget it, can we have a look at the three 0 eight again please Mr Warren. The one with the scope. I'd like you to have a closer look at, look at it.


Q. If I hold it up with the scope, you might.


Q. If Mr Warren holds it like that.

A. Yeah. No, no, I've never seen that one before. Never.

Q. Thanks Mr Warren.

A. ... (inaudible). I wish I had that AR15 in here, then I could probably get out. Jump part of the window, I could probably jump through the window and escape because of this. I don't like being locked up, it's not very nice.

Q. No.

A. ... (inaudible)

Q. Im not surprised, that'd be a fairly common reaction I suppose.

A. Yeah. Yep.

Q. Martin, do you remember the twenty eighth of April, Sunday the twenty eighth of April this year?

A. Aah, no I don't. Was that the day I suppose everyone's talking about. Ohh, about the drama of me being in Royal Hobart Hospital, I think.

Q. That was when you were in the hospital on.

A. On the.

Q. Twenty ninth.

A. Mmm, twenty ninth. Sunday the twenty eighth. Well was that when I was in here or.

Q. Perhaps if I make it easier. Do you recall going to ahh, your mother's place on Saturday night with Petra and having a meal?

A. Ohh yes. Mmm.

Q. How'd the night go?

A. Ohh. That was the day before I got burnt I think. Ohh, the night went well. Went really well.

Q. Have a couple of drinks?

A. Couple of drinks, yeah. Couple of quiet drinks.

Q. Did you drive back to your place?

A. Yeah. Spent the night at my place, yeah.